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dynamox

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October 19th, 2007 12:00

NDMP backup over ip

Does anybody know if EMC supports NDMP backup over ip. My backup application (TSM) supports NAS filer to TSM server backup ..but does EMC ? Right now my CDL connected to my Celerra via fc fabric, but now i have requirement to put another Celerra at another place on campus where CDL will not be available.

BillStein-Dell

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October 19th, 2007 14:00

You can mount your filesystem to your TSM client and perform a local backup; this would be network based. You can back up any filesystem visible over the network.

dynamox

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October 19th, 2007 14:00

i can but then it would not be NDMP backup. In TSM i send Celerra backup to celerradump pool while TOC is sent into its own pool and not saved in the TSM database. This way i dont fill up TSM database with metadata of my many multi-terabytes file systems. I also needed to be NDMP so my backup is true point in time backup (using snapsure).

BillStein-Dell

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October 19th, 2007 15:00

In order to accomplish what you're asking, you can do it using 3-way backups. The NDMP tape server can be a Data Mover or another qualified server.

A three-way backup involves the following three hosts:
- NDMP backup client running qualified NDMP backup software
- Data Mover (NDMP data server) containing the data to be backed up (reads from the storage system and produces a data stream for backup)
- Data Mover or qualified server running the tape service (reads the data stream and writes it to tape)

In a three-way backup, both file system and control data travel across the network. This connection can be a dedicated network to avoid network traffic.

Check the manual "Configuring NDMP Backups on Celerra" for more information on 3-Way Backups.

Bad news though: EMC does not support TSM through 5.4 doing 3-way backups from Data Mover to Data Mover. You *may* be able to do it using another qualified tape server and not a Data Mover, though. That would be vendor software-dependent.

Message was edited by:
BillStein

dynamox

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October 19th, 2007 17:00

can it be RPQed ? Any ideas when it is going to be supported by EMC. It is supported by IBM/TSM ..cause i can see instructions how to set it up in TSM Admin guide. For my shop it would be ether expand backup fabric to remote building (too expensive and unlikely) or select different platform for NAS infrastructure (netapp).

Rainer_EMC

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October 20th, 2007 03:00

I'll see if I can get you an answer

TSM 5.4 was just recently qualified so it might be just a matter of time

dynamox

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October 20th, 2007 05:00

Thanks Rainer ..anything you can find out about this matter would be great, maybe a time line ?

dynamox

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October 21st, 2007 16:00

dynamox

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October 22nd, 2007 13:00

i got my NAS TC contacting engineering. There is a big business opportunity for EMC to get it tested and qualified, TSM is deployed at so many shops. For my shop it would either make or brake the deal for future Celerra deployment.

BillStein-Dell

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October 22nd, 2007 13:00

That slide is a little misleading. It talks about the new features in 5.4, and then says "IBM N series, Network Appliance, EMC Celerra, and other NAS devices certified for NDMP operations with Tivoli Storage Manager." That is true; we have certified TSM 5.4 for "NDMP operations."

But not for 3-way backup.

We qualify ONLY Data Mover-to-Data Mover 3-way configurations, as support for such is EMC's responsibility. We do not qualify vendors' implementations which use their own servers. Support for Data Mover-to-TSM Backup server is IBM's responsibility.

As Bing said, if you think that there may be a business opportunity here, please submit a NAS Feature Request to request that EMC qualify the TSM solution. You can also address your Sales team to see if qualifications are already in progress, and if so, you can have your Sales team request that the qualification process be accelerated.

-bill

Rainer_EMC

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October 22nd, 2007 13:00

thanks - interesting document

seems like IBM is finally getting interested in the finer points of NDMP

Do you know if they now support passing NDMP variables ?

They are the only NDMP backup software vendor I know that cant do that, which has caused some difficulties with features that are normally controlled through variables.

Note though that this document doesnt discuss your config (If I understood it correctly)

I talks about NDMP tape-to-tape and NDMP filer-to-TSM_tape_server - what we call heterogeneous 3-way NDMP

It doesnt mention normal 3-way NDMP where one Celerra data mover acts as a disk server and the other acts as a tape server.

The difference here is whom you want to put it onto tape - a data mover or the TSM server acting as a tape server.

dynamox

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October 22nd, 2007 14:00

bring good news mister Z :D

dynamox

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October 22nd, 2007 19:00


Do you know if they now support passing NDMP
variables ?


nope, when i look in TSM admin guide they describe how to create snapshots manually on netapp ..that tells me there still no integration with neither netapp (go figure ..they resell their box) nor with Celerra.



Note though that this document doesn't discuss your
config (If I understood it correctly)

I talks about NDMP tape-to-tape and NDMP
filer-to-TSM_tape_server - what we call heterogeneous
3-way NDMP

It doesn't mention normal 3-way NDMP where one Celerra
data mover acts as a disk server and the other acts
as a tape server.

The difference here is whom you want to put it onto
tape - a data mover or the TSM server acting as a
tape server.


i don't really have any preference ..i would rather put the load on my TSM server and not on the datamover connected to CDL but i just really want to put NDMP data on tape ..one way or another :) . Another benefit of doing filer to TSM server backup is that way data stored in "native" format on the TSM side ..that allows me to share media with regular open systems backup, where right now NDMP backups can not share media with regular open systems. It's probably TSM specific issue, yet it would allow me to utilize my media better ..especially if it needs to go offsite. They are a few more TSM specific things that would be available if i go with "filer to TSM server" schema.

BillStein-Dell

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October 23rd, 2007 23:00

Another benefit of doing filer to TSM server backup
is that way data stored in "native" format on the TSM
side ..that allows me to share media with regular
open systems backup, where right now NDMP backups can
not share media with regular open systems. It's
probably TSM specific issue, yet it would allow me to
utilize my media better ..especially if it needs to
go offsite. They are a few more TSM specific things
that would be available if i go with "filer to TSM
server" schema.


We're not saying that you can't do it. TSM supports their own 3-way NDMP backup solution using the TSM server connected to the CDL instead of a Data Mover. I bet you can get that solution to work, too. Being network-based, you could back up multiple Data Movers on different Celerras using this method.

What we are saying is:

1. EMC has not qualified a Data Mover-to-Data Mover 3-way backup using TSM.
2. EMC does not qualify or support the TSM "Mover-to-TSM Server" solution, so if you have a problem which requires support, you will need to open your ticket with TSM support. EMC would troubleshoot a problem to the point where we have shown that the Data Mover is not causing the problem, and the remainder of the issue would need to be handled by TSM support.

dynamox

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October 24th, 2007 03:00

Bill,

i understood what you said ..the first time ;), we got a ns80 eval ..that will be our test bed ..will see what happens. Would you happen to know technical reasons why EMC does not qualify "mover to TSM" solution ?

Thanks

BillStein-Dell

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285 Posts

October 24th, 2007 12:00

Would you happen to know technical
reasons why EMC does not qualify "mover to TSM"
solution ?

Thanks


There is no technical reason that we don't qualify the solution. It's not our solution, and EMC does not qualify other vendors' products. We qualify vendors' interoperability with us, but this solution is outside of the Celerra, beyond what we have influence over with our code.

When TSM does its 3-way backup, DART code has no influence over that operation. We operate using standard NDMP data streaming; our 3-way code is not involved during TSM's 3-way operation. We support our own implementation of 3-way backup, using Data Mover to Data Mover, as that support is our responsibility.

In this case, it would be TSM's responsibility to qualify their 3-way solution will work with a Data Mover serving the data to the TSM server.

hth

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